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	<title>Comments for Propagantidote's Weblog</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:27:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Tribalism and the Beast by Comatose</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/tribalism-the-beast-and-jon-stewart/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Comatose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/tribalism-the-beast-and-jon-stewart/#comment-37</guid>
		<description>One point: she says &quot;Republicans,&quot; not conservatives. And while I would say that some conservatives, especially Christian fundamentalists, are to be rejected out of hand for what is essentially anti-logical thinking, principled fiscal conservatives and libertarians are certainly to be included in the debate. However, the GOP is so deceitful and ethically compromised that conservative principles are only their PR campaign, and have virtually nothing to do with what Republicans actually do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point: she says &#8220;Republicans,&#8221; not conservatives. And while I would say that some conservatives, especially Christian fundamentalists, are to be rejected out of hand for what is essentially anti-logical thinking, principled fiscal conservatives and libertarians are certainly to be included in the debate. However, the GOP is so deceitful and ethically compromised that conservative principles are only their PR campaign, and have virtually nothing to do with what Republicans actually do.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Corporate Detox by propagantidote</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/corporate-detox/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>propagantidote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s not as obvious as some of the other connections mentioned. 

1. In general (political, social, and economic) terms, the drug war creates fear, destroys communities, and increases the wealth gap, all of which work to consolidate power at the top. Now, we&#039;re afraid of poor people and run to the powerful to protect us from the powerless. The powerless have a tougher time working together at a grassroots level to fight for their rights, since they&#039;re at war with each other. And with less money, their voice is quieted even further. 

2. In specifically economic terms, local economies are dependent on their prisons. It behooves politicians to get prisons built in their neck of the woods. Communities depend on it for construction jobs, janitorial jobs, guard jobs, etc.  In 1969, war was declared on drugs and incarceration rates have been climbing consistently at an insanely fast pace ever since. 1972 = 300,000 inmates, 2005 = 2.2 million inmates. Not all, but the bulk of the increase is tied to the drug war directly or indirectly (resulting societal breakdown). 

Eric Schlosser explains:

&quot;The United States has developed a prison-industrial complex—a set of bureaucratic, political, and economic interests that encourage increased spending on imprisonment, regardless of the actual need. The prison-industrial complex is not a conspiracy, guiding the nation&#039;s criminal-justice policy behind closed doors. It is a confluence of special interests that has given prison construction in the United States a seemingly unstoppable momentum. It is composed of politicians, both liberal and conservative, who have used the fear of crime to gain votes; impoverished rural areas where prisons have become a cornerstone of economic development; private companies that regard the roughly $35 billion spent each year on corrections not as a burden on American taxpayers but as a lucrative market; and government officials whose fiefdoms have expanded along with the inmate population.&quot;

Before the 1980s, the prison system got its materials from corporations via tax dollars. In the 1980s, corporate involvement came to be more direct as some elements of the prison system were privatized. This trend continues today. 

Corporations and government are less distinguishable when the government isn&#039;t truly responsive to the people. Both are forms of tyranny, though corporate tyranny is perfectly legal while government tyranny has to claim to be something it isn&#039;t. I&#039;m not sure what % of the prison system is directly run by corporations because the numbers change significantly year to year but 1) it&#039;s growing and 2) any way you look at it, they&#039;re benefiting greatly.  

Here&#039;s a perfect example, by the way, of the denial/ignorance of the role played by objective factors on human behavior:
&quot;The economist and legal scholar Michael K. Block, who believes that American sentencing policies are still not harsh enough, offers a straightforward explanation for why the United States has lately incarcerated so many people: &#039;There are too many prisoners because there are too many criminals committing too many crimes.&#039;&quot; Way to look for real answers, dickhead.

An internet search of &quot;prison industrial complex&quot; leads to lots of relevant sites. The biggest corporations involved are U.S. Corrections Corporation and Wackenhut Corrections.

Thanks for the comment &#039;raldo!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s not as obvious as some of the other connections mentioned. </p>
<p>1. In general (political, social, and economic) terms, the drug war creates fear, destroys communities, and increases the wealth gap, all of which work to consolidate power at the top. Now, we&#8217;re afraid of poor people and run to the powerful to protect us from the powerless. The powerless have a tougher time working together at a grassroots level to fight for their rights, since they&#8217;re at war with each other. And with less money, their voice is quieted even further. </p>
<p>2. In specifically economic terms, local economies are dependent on their prisons. It behooves politicians to get prisons built in their neck of the woods. Communities depend on it for construction jobs, janitorial jobs, guard jobs, etc.  In 1969, war was declared on drugs and incarceration rates have been climbing consistently at an insanely fast pace ever since. 1972 = 300,000 inmates, 2005 = 2.2 million inmates. Not all, but the bulk of the increase is tied to the drug war directly or indirectly (resulting societal breakdown). </p>
<p>Eric Schlosser explains:</p>
<p>&#8220;The United States has developed a prison-industrial complex—a set of bureaucratic, political, and economic interests that encourage increased spending on imprisonment, regardless of the actual need. The prison-industrial complex is not a conspiracy, guiding the nation&#8217;s criminal-justice policy behind closed doors. It is a confluence of special interests that has given prison construction in the United States a seemingly unstoppable momentum. It is composed of politicians, both liberal and conservative, who have used the fear of crime to gain votes; impoverished rural areas where prisons have become a cornerstone of economic development; private companies that regard the roughly $35 billion spent each year on corrections not as a burden on American taxpayers but as a lucrative market; and government officials whose fiefdoms have expanded along with the inmate population.&#8221;</p>
<p>Before the 1980s, the prison system got its materials from corporations via tax dollars. In the 1980s, corporate involvement came to be more direct as some elements of the prison system were privatized. This trend continues today. </p>
<p>Corporations and government are less distinguishable when the government isn&#8217;t truly responsive to the people. Both are forms of tyranny, though corporate tyranny is perfectly legal while government tyranny has to claim to be something it isn&#8217;t. I&#8217;m not sure what % of the prison system is directly run by corporations because the numbers change significantly year to year but 1) it&#8217;s growing and 2) any way you look at it, they&#8217;re benefiting greatly.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a perfect example, by the way, of the denial/ignorance of the role played by objective factors on human behavior:<br />
&#8220;The economist and legal scholar Michael K. Block, who believes that American sentencing policies are still not harsh enough, offers a straightforward explanation for why the United States has lately incarcerated so many people: &#8216;There are too many prisoners because there are too many criminals committing too many crimes.&#8217;&#8221; Way to look for real answers, dickhead.</p>
<p>An internet search of &#8220;prison industrial complex&#8221; leads to lots of relevant sites. The biggest corporations involved are U.S. Corrections Corporation and Wackenhut Corrections.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment &#8216;raldo!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Corporate Detox by ctreacylenda</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/corporate-detox/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>ctreacylenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Is the drug war waged by corporations for profit? It&#039;s not that I don&#039;t believe you, I just hadn&#039;t heard that before and wonder which corporations and how they profit...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the drug war waged by corporations for profit? It&#8217;s not that I don&#8217;t believe you, I just hadn&#8217;t heard that before and wonder which corporations and how they profit&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on David Brooks says: trust your gut by 'raldo</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/david-brooks-agrees-with-propagantidoteor-does-he/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>'raldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/david-brooks-agrees-with-propagantidoteor-does-he/#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Good point.  That&#039;s why I was glad to see my emotional/intuitive decision reinforced by taking this quiz-zy thing which showed that my stances on the issues are shared by my favorite candidate.      http://www.electoralcompass.com/v/wsj

Of course, I still made the initial decision with my gut...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point.  That&#8217;s why I was glad to see my emotional/intuitive decision reinforced by taking this quiz-zy thing which showed that my stances on the issues are shared by my favorite candidate.      <a href="http://www.electoralcompass.com/v/wsj" rel="nofollow">http://www.electoralcompass.com/v/wsj</a></p>
<p>Of course, I still made the initial decision with my gut&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on beyond good and saddam by propagantidote</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/beyond-good-and-saddam/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>propagantidote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/beyond-good-and-saddam/#comment-3</guid>
		<description>Please do bring the disagreements and excursions.  

It may well be obnoxious for me or anyone to talk about getting people to vote in their own interests.  It has a ring of proselytization and condescension.  Being a person of the people, that&#039;s not what I&#039;m going for.  

Justifying the main premise of this blog is a priority.  It&#039;s also, ironically, challenged by my burden of desirable consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please do bring the disagreements and excursions.  </p>
<p>It may well be obnoxious for me or anyone to talk about getting people to vote in their own interests.  It has a ring of proselytization and condescension.  Being a person of the people, that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m going for.  </p>
<p>Justifying the main premise of this blog is a priority.  It&#8217;s also, ironically, challenged by my burden of desirable consequences.</p>
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		<title>Comment on beyond good and saddam by jadelane</title>
		<link>http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/beyond-good-and-saddam/#comment-2</link>
		<dc:creator>jadelane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://propagantidote.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/beyond-good-and-saddam/#comment-2</guid>
		<description>(Preface for now and ever--I&#039;m inclined to agree--which is not an interesting response at all. So the disagreements/excursions are more notable.)

When is the conception of (something as) evil valid/useful/meaningfully better than a more complicated picture?

I think most people who embrace emotional points of resistance hold such responses to be good-in-themselves, and would hesitate to believe that their interests are separable from those emotions. Perhaps the means (quelling emotional responses) do not justify the ends (advancing &quot;interests&quot;). Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Preface for now and ever&#8211;I&#8217;m inclined to agree&#8211;which is not an interesting response at all. So the disagreements/excursions are more notable.)</p>
<p>When is the conception of (something as) evil valid/useful/meaningfully better than a more complicated picture?</p>
<p>I think most people who embrace emotional points of resistance hold such responses to be good-in-themselves, and would hesitate to believe that their interests are separable from those emotions. Perhaps the means (quelling emotional responses) do not justify the ends (advancing &#8220;interests&#8221;). Thoughts?</p>
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